Fauci Transcribed Interview — House COVID Subcommittee, Part 2 (9 Jan 2024) (Part 3 of 3)

transmission because you have to have everybody tested, and that 25

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was one of the things.  But clearly in hospitalizations and death.   1
Dr. Ruiz.   So there was clear evidence  --  2
Dr. Fauci.   Yeah.   3
Dr. Ruiz.   -- that vaccination requirements  --  4
Dr. Fauci.   Right.  5
Dr. Ruiz.   -- was a protective measure that had population outcomes benefiting 6
saving people's lives?   7
Dr. Fauci.   I don't  -- I can't quote the studies, but, you know, my recollection is 8
that that's the case.   9
Dr. Ruiz.   Okay. 10

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 1
BY   2
Q We have also heard suggestions that vaccine requirements were 3
implemented in a manner that did not appropriately take into account people who had 4
acquired immunity via infection.   5
As I understand it, just succinctly, there are different kinds of immunity, including 6
vaccine -conferred immunity, infection -acquired immunity, and hybrid immunity.   7
In the last round you discussed this topic, but for the record could you just confirm 8
for us that hybrid immunity, immunity that is conferred both from vaccination and from 9
prior infection, offers greater protection to COVID -19 patients than infection -acquired 10
immunity alone?   11
A That is true.  For the most part, that's true.  I mean, as a group.  You're 12
going to find individuals where maybe somebody got a response with natural immunity 13
and someone had acquired immunity and they were not as good an immune response.   14
But when you look at a large group of cohort , that hybrid immunity clearly is 15
better than just immunity from infection, and it's also better than just vaccine.   16
Q And in your assessment, did COVID -19 vaccine requirements pose any threat 17
to the health of people who had already been infected with COVID -19?  18
A No.  No, no.  No evidence at all that vaccinating someone who's been 19
infected and recovered from infection has a negative impact on their health.  20
Q Okay.   21
BY :  22
Q Dr. Fauci, I'm not going to belabor the points that I'm going to make, but 23
you've said throughout the 2 days that we've been here that clear and consistent 24
communication by public officials is important in addressing the pandemic, correct?  25

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A Correct.  1
Q And do you think that it can be harmful for public officials to downplay the 2
risks of the virus?  3
A Yes.  Yes, of course.   4
Q I'm going to go through a couple of statements that were made, and I just 5
want to get your take on them.   6
On January  22nd, 2020, President  Trump said during a CNBC interview, quote, 7
"We have it totally under control.  It's one person coming in from China, and we have it 8
under control.  It's going to be just fine," end quote.   9
Again, this was on January  22nd, 2020.   10
At that time, did you agree with that statement from President  Trump?   11
A I was concerned about it saying it was under control because of the way 12
outbreaks behave.  They start off under the radar screen, and you don't really know if 13
you have it under control.  That's something that was an unknowable at the time.   14
Q Similarly, on February 27th, 2020, President  Trump stated, quote, "It's going 15
to disappear.  One  day -- it's like a miracle  -- it will disappear," end quote.   16
Did you agree with that statement by President  Trump?   17
A No.  And I think I  -- that was one of the times when I had to publicly 18
disagree with the President, which started the ball rolling.   19
Q Do you think that this statement harmed America's response to the 20
pandemic by downplaying public concern?   21
A Yeah.  I think that if the President had said that, you know, we really have a 22
problem here and we've really got to address it in a reasonable way, you know, by taking 23
precautions, a lot more people would have done things like wear a mask and take 24
appropriate precautions.  25

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Dr. Ruiz.   And, therefore, would you say a lot more people's lives would've been 1
saved?   2
Dr. Fauci.   No, I don't want to quantitate that, Raul, because then that gets taken 3
out of context in a sound bite, and I don't want to do that.   4
BY   5
Q My colleague on the Republican side forecasted this one to you.  But on 6
April  23rd, 2020, President  Trump stated, quote, "I see the disinfectant where it knocks it 7
out in a minute, 1  minute.  And is there a way we can do something like that by injection 8
or almost a cleaning?  Because, you see, it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous 9
number on the lungs, and so it would be interesting to check that," end quote.   10
Do you agree with President  Trump that injecting disinfectant would've been a 11
legitimate way to treat COVID -19?   12
A No.  13
Q And if people were to do that, the result could very likely be death, correct?  14
A Correct.   15
Q I want to compare some of these statements to statements that the 16
President made more privately.   17
On March  19th, 2020, President  Trump said to Robert Woodward about the risk of 18
the virus, quote, "I wanted to always play it down," end quote.  19
Do you think that playing down the risks of a virus is a responsible strategy?  20
A I've said that publicly, that that's one of the reasons why I spoke out against 21
that.   22
Q At the time, did you feel like the public officials could've been making 23
statements that were more helpful to the response?  24
A Well, one of the things I would've hoped was that the President would have, 25

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one, encouraged people to wear a mask and to do more social distancing.  I think the 1
idea of not wanting to wear a mask sent a signal out to people that it's not a good idea to 2
wear a mask.  And that's one of the ways I think it could've helped, because leadership 3
counts.   4
  And with that, I think that's a great place to end.  Thank you.   5
Ms. Castor.   So bringing us back to today, in this Congress, thank you very much 6
for, during these long 2  days, going through lessons learned with some recommendations 7
for all of us.   8
But I don't think we can lose sight of COVID -19, 1.4  million American  death s to 9
date are the estimates.  And we just have to do everything we can to prevent that kind 10
of epidemic, pandemic again.   11
You've said, you advised us, act now, before the fact.  Don't chase an outbreak.  12
And even Chairman Wenstrup said, he said that he'd been in a war, and in a war, 13
sometimes you don't have what you need to protect yourself.  But that means when our 14
troops come home you surely make sure that they have what's necessary to protect 15
themselves, to protect us for the next war.   16
So right now, there are some debates in Congress over legislation that could help 17
prepare us.  One is, we've been trying to work with our Republican colleagues on the 18
reauthorization of PAHPA.   19
PAHPA is the Pandemic and All -Hazards Preparedness Act.  It's intended to 20
improve the Nation's public health and medical preparedness and response capabilities 21
for emergencies, whether deliberate, accidental, or natural.   22
One of the critical pieces of PAHPA is the authorization of the Strategic National 23
Stockpile.  Right now, it has expired.  That stockpile, as you're well aware, is intended 24
to contain lifesaving supplies, resources, and medicines that can be deployed at the 25

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moment a crisis hits.   1
Do you agree that the Strategic National Stockpile is an important part of our 2
larger public health preparedness?   3
Dr. Fauci.   Yes.   4
Ms. Castor.   And during the COVID -19 pandemic, the resources and supplies 5
within the National Stockpile were critical to responding to COVID -19?   6
Dr. Fauci.   Correct.   7
Ms. Castor.   Do you agree that it is important that the Strategic National 8
Stockpile properly be reauthorized and well resourced so that we can ensure that we are 9
prepared for future pandemics?   10
Dr. Fauci.   Yes.   11
Ms. Castor.   What would the impact of a weakened stockpile, Strategic National 12
Stockpile, be on our ability to address future emergencies?   13
Dr. Fauci.   It would hinder our initial response.  If you have to play catchup with 14
a stockpile then you're behind  the game to begin with.   15
One of the most important reasons that the concept of the stockpile was 16
developed years ago was that we could just hit the ground running if you wind up with an 17
emergency.  And if you deplete that and the next emergency comes and you don't 18
replete it, then you have a problem.   19
Ms. Castor.   Failure to reauthorize PAHPA has also meant that the public health 20
emergency preparedness grants have also been allowed to expire.  Those are the grants 21
that support our local communities back home and States and territorial health 22
departments in preparing for and responding to public health emergencies, be it from 23
infectious diseases or natural disasters or other emerging threats.   24
Are those kind of resources for States and local communities  -- well, let me first 25

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ask, were they vital  --  1
Dr. Fauci.   Yes, yeah.   2
Ms. Castor.   -- in the early days of the pandemic?   3
Dr. Fauci.   Yes, they were, of course.   4
Ms. Castor.   And why is it important to have consistent, stable resources in 5
partnership with State and local jurisdictions to ensure that we're able to tackle a public 6
health crisis?   7
Dr. Fauci.   Because, as I mentioned in my previous discussions, that it is very 8
important to have at the local public health level the capability of responding.   9
Ms. Castor.   In real time.   10
Dr. Fauci.   Immediately.   11
Ms. Castor.   Immediately.  That saves lives.   12
Dr. Fauci.   Right.   13
Ms. Castor.   Does it save money if we have those things ready to go?   14
Dr. Fauci.   Ultimately, it does.  I mean, it's just the same as what we were 15
talking about with the Commonwealth Fund data that showed that if, you know, 3 million 16
infections were prevented  -- excuse me, 3 million deaths were prevented, 18 million 17
hospitalizations were prevented, and with that $1.19  trillion was saved.   18
Ms. Castor.   So this Congress has been marked, people will look back on it by 19
shutdowns, threats, and showdowns.  September  30th was the end of the last fiscal 20
year, and here we are in early January and there's no  -- appropriations bills have not been 21
finalized.   22
So there are  -- you're used to these debates over appropriations in the Congress.  23
It would seem that one thing we should be able to come together and agree on in the 24
wake of the deadliest pandemic we've ever lived through is making sure not just PAHPA is 25

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reauthorized and we incorporate the lessons learned, but that we make sure that we are 1
not cutting our ability to investigate health concerns.   2
I'm concerned that the majority has forced a lot of these cuts on the American 3
people that are going to ultimately cost us money, cost us lives.   4
Dr. Fauci's former institute, NIAID, received $836  million from the first COVID -19 5
supplemental for COVID -19 research, but cuts that Republicans demanded in the Fiscal 6
Responsibility Act rescinded all of those unobligated balances.  In total, the FRA will 7
have the effect of cutting $500  million from NIH's budget.   8
What would the effect be if this is where we end up, with a budget of $500  million 9
of cut to NIH's budget, and specifically NIAID?   10
Dr. Fauci.   That would really be catastrophic to NIAID.  I mean, if I were the 11
director now, as I was back, you know, during the pandemic, I would be deeply concerned 12
about a cut at that level.   13
Because when we responded to COVID, while it was full blown, part of the 14
response was to create the capability  -- and I mentioned this in response to the majority's 15
question, to Chairman Wenstrup's question about needing to make more drugs.  We 16
need better drugs against these viruses.   17
And one of the programs was a drug development program that I established 18
right, you know, in the middle of the outbreak not only to give us drugs for the current 19
outbreak but to have better drugs for future outbreaks.  I don't see how that program 20
can survive if you cut $500  million.   21
Ms. Castor.   So thank you very much.  You've provided us a long list of lessons 22
learned, and I think it would be the most constructive way for the select committee and 23
for the Energy and Commerce Committee, would be for all of us to come together and 24
work in a bipartisan way on these not just commonsense but just critical investments in 25

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the public health for the American people.  So thank you for sharing your expertise.   1
Dr. Fauci.   You're welcome.  2
Ms. Castor.   And thank you for your years of service.   3
Dr. Fauci.   Thank you.  Appreciate it.   4
Dr. Ruiz.   Thank you.  I'd like to close also by thanking you and your family for 5
your incredible sacrifice throughout the years and your support for the population, but 6
also for every patient that you have taken care of, and to the advancements of truth 7
through science that you have proposed and the advancements in public health that you 8
have helped elucidate that has had real impacts in saving lives and improving lives of the 9
American people.   10
I want to thank you for your time here.  I want to thank you for enduring and 11
being resilient during all the attacks and the intimidations and the threats that you and 12
your family have gone through.  And I want to really thank you for your expertise and 13
giving us a lot to ponder in the lessons learned in how we move forward to protect more 14
Americans.   15
Now, I want to wish you luck with the storm out there, both literally and 16
metaphorically, and wish you safe travels back home.   17
Dr. Fauci.   Thank you, Raul.   18
Dr. Ruiz.   Thank you.  19
Dr. Fauci.   Appreciate it.   20
  And I think with that, we can go off the record.  21
[Whereupon, at 6:33 p.m., the interview was concluded.] 22

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   Certificate of Deponent/Interviewee  1
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 I have read the foregoing ____ pages, which contain the correct transcript of the 4
answers made by me to the questions therein recorded.  5
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     _____________________________  9
      Witness Name  10
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     _____________________________  13
          Date  14
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Summary:
Official transcript, Part 2 of Anthony Fauci's transcribed interview before the House Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Pandemic.

Excerpt: transmission because you have to have everybody tested, and that 25        237  was one of the things.  But clearly in hospitalizations and death.   1  Dr. Ruiz.   So there was clear evidence  --  2  Dr. Fauci.   Yeah.   3  Dr. Ruiz.   -- that vaccination requirements  --  4  Dr. Fauci.   Right.  5  Dr. Ruiz.   -- was a protective measure that had population outcomes benefiting 6  saving people's lives?   7  Dr. Fauci.   I don't  -- I can't quote the studies, but, you know, my recollection is 8  that that's the case.   9  Dr. Ruiz.   Okay. 10       238   1  BY   2  Q We have also heard suggestions that vaccine requirements were 3  implemented in a manner that did not appropriately take into account people who had 4  acquired immunity via infection.   5  As I understand it, just…